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As nation states have grown out of the
time when we were tribal we have begin to

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think about ourselves as
protectors of other nations.

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Or maybe not protectors of other nations
but invaders and occupiers of other

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nations and so part of what we'll talk about
I think is whether the responsibility

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to protect also means that we have

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a responsibility to take over in
rule as we have seen our country do

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perhaps too often hard
to discuss since. Who

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all of you probably know and love. Has
traveled in the circles of international

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concern

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a lot and we were honored to meet Mr
Hunt's fun spawning Quinn he was the

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U.N. Coordinator humanitarian
coordinator in Iraq. We met him at

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a time that we perceived he was becoming
somewhat to screen told by the rule that

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the United States was playing.
So we. We thought he was

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a hero when he decided to leave that position
and we became more and more convinced

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that he was

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a hero has been here before in this
church and educated us and helped us to

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understand what was going on and now he's
working on this particular part of our

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human endeavor so all please join me
in welcoming. And hunts one spawning

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and I hope that you will
enjoy this they will have

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a question and answer back and forth and
then we'll invite you to participate in

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asking questions as well thank you
very much for being here tonight.

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It's so good to see you I've been
looking forward to this Burt email.

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If I would be able to
be here tonight to be

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a part of the conversation with you about
the responsibility to protect and I'm

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going to confess right now since I'm

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a pastor you know Confession is good for
us. And I'm going to confess that I was

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not at all acquainted with that concept the
responsibility to protect at least not

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as it's been formulated and written.
And so I've been doing quite

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a bit of reading here and there to try
and get up to speed with it and part

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of what I. I've been reading has brought
back all kinds of memories of the trips to

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Iraq and then later to Syria that
we made. And given me lots to

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think about one of the things I read was
the two thousand and twelve report by the

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general secretary on the progress
of the responsibility to protect

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and. In that. His evaluation was that it

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is

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a and effective tool for. Being

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for. Being able to ward off.

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Violence in countries and to ensure the
human. Well being in countries where

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there is conflict and and
discord and I in reading the

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paper that you wrote I think that was
recently that bird sent me. Read that

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you don't share that same opinion. That
the general secretary does about the use

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of the responsibility to protect statement
and and concept so I wanted to ask you

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about that he he concluded that it has
been used effectively. To provide for

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the well being of people and allow other
means than conflict and war to be

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used. To deal with. Internal
disagreements and even

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X.

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Turtle. International disk
disagreements. Can you tell me what

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your opinion of the effectiveness
of that document and that

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concept has been. Well first of all let me

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also say thank you that I can
be here. Grateful to. Jerry of

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course to Burt and to Barbara and you
Reverend. This is almost familiar

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territory. And what I
think we owe you is not

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can not nice rhetoric but
in on this to c'est mind of

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a concept which is formally in

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a form of sense fairly new. If
I can just go or step back if

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I made. Yes you can ask you can say. This

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book booklet that was adopted in your country
in San Francisco in one thousand nine

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hundred five the U.N.

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Charter. It's

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a booklet about our collective
responsibility to protect.

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You know why just sense every page talks
about peaceful resolution of conflicts

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about dialogue about tolerance all
the good things that we. Want to

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hear as we sit in the house
of God here so I I think that

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needs to be said but I also want to stress
is when I earlier said it does not. And

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very old concept in

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a formal sense then I think as far as the
United Nations where I did my work for

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thirty two long years I know
a little bit about the U.N.

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Charge and what the UN UN objectives
but I can say that. Maybe

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until two thousand and five. The concept
of responsibility to protect in

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former political sense.
Or something it was

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a Canadian initiative in two thousand
and one the government of Canada

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in

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a moment of despair I guess when they looked
back and they saw what the law of the

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earlier decades had brought in terms of
genocide in terms of walk crimes in terms

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of mass murder they came to the
conclusion the time had come to really.

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Rethink a concept which in
the nine hundred sixty S.

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And the one nine hundred seventy S.

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Had become so prominent and that concept
was the concept of sovereignty.

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I hope you can hear me better now the
concept of sovereignty. Became an immensely

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important. Concept in the one nine hundred
sixty S. Why nine hundred sixty S.

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Because that was really the decade when
countries became independent more and more

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countries became independent and as
they became independent the most

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precious objective was to
finally have sovereignty

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to finally being masters of their
own destiny so it became really

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a sucker Sanct term nobody who
tried to influence international

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relations. Question that concept
everyone said we accept its

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sovereignty when I served in Iraq. There
was no UN resolution which didn't

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stress. Territorial integrity
and sovereignty but then as the

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years went by and these countries
had enjoyed decades of independence

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things happened. And new concepts
came into the debate. For example the

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concept of failing states states that where
governments were no longer in be able.

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To can T.

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Human rights to guarantee

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a functioning government apparatus
it wasn't there so one began in the

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nineteen seventies to think
about how one should

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exercise international responsibility
for countries in failing state

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a people in free in failing states
the prime example. Was Somalia

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during during those years already and then
something else happened and now I mean

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if I compress this into

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a few sentences project spans several
decades in one nine hundred seventy four.

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You had genocide in Cambodia in one thousand
nine hundred for twenty years later

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you had genocide in Rwanda and Africa and
in one thousand nine hundred nine you had

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to struggle. To the murdering of
Muslims in the former Yugoslavia.

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And all that accumulated to the
point where on well it was the

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Canadian government that formally introduced
this commission. To look at how the

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international community could
more responsibly exercise. The

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rights to prevent or when
it happens to reduce. These

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conditions of genocide and mass murder
in different countries so they got this

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commission together and. Then.

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Something their dramatic happened which
then in two thousand and five the UN

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General Assembly. Continue to
debate and adopt and that is why

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suddenly argued yes sovereignty
is important but with

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sovereignty comes also responsibility
and responsibility has an

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external and internal dimension external
dimension is that you respect the

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sovereignty of other countries
the internal elements had to do

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with guaranteeing human rights for
all segments of the population

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no exception if you lived in country X.

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Human rights should be available to
all and when that was not the case.

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Then the question that was
debated and answered was. Do

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we have the right to then as in
external parties to intervene

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internally and the answer that was
given Yes we have that right in

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a short sentence human rights
became more important.

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And sovereignty that was I think the

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a major. A major new element
in international relations

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and my long winded roads to
revenue Most question is

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that the. That this this riots this

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human rights that supersedes
sovereignty that this.

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Was

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a valuable concept but under one
condition and that is easier

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said than done that there wouldn't be
there would not be any hidden agenda

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and if you start applying and we must go
into that more and more detail when you

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start applying this concept R two P.

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Responsibility to Protect with

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a hidden agenda where you
pretend up front example Libya

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that you want to protect civilian
populations and behind the curtain

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you are having something quite
differently in mind then this concepts

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a good concept then becomes

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a dangerous concept and I think that
stat is the difficulty I have that one.

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Must not assume that the existence
of that concept leads to

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an application that is innocent. It isn't
innocent and it hasn't been innocent and

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we should really because many top many
people in the press also many analysts now

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say Why use this concept not
being implemented in Syria well.

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Look at Libya and how it was where it was
applied maybe I should stop here for

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a moment then. You could go on
forever as far as I'm concerned.

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But you're at the point now where I have
another question that I'd like to address

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to relate to that. When Jerry and

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Bert and Dick and others here and Bob
were in Iraq in two thousand and two

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and we met with. To talk to him
about the effect of the sanctions

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on the Iraqi people. We were in the what
eleventh year of the sanctions at that

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time against Iraq and one of the
statements he made that I puzzled over

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in our meeting and kept asking him
to explain more deeply was the

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idea that I was hearing from
him that it was the U.S.

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Is power in applying.
Resolution six six one

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for the just as the decision maker about
the saying chanson the materials that

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would be allowed in and not allowed in and
when I pressed him he finally said the

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U.S.

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Is. Committee six six one.
Committee six six one.

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Yeah which was the committee that made
all the decisions about what would be

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sanctioned and what would not be sanctioned
in terms of materials entering Iraq

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during that time during those eleven years
and that was also just about the time

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when the so-called smart sanctions
were being initiated. So as I was

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reading the general Secretary's report
our early from early this year about the

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progress and the state of affairs
with the responsibility to

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protect. He in one place listed several

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instances which you did as well

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a few minutes ago of past
atrocities and genocides that this.

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What can I call it. Resolution.

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Decision was designed to prevent starting
with the Holocaust and including some

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some of those you named and I thought
it was particularly unusual that in two

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thousand and five and now in two thousand
and twelve Iraq was not in that list.

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Because I remember when we went in two
thousand and two. We had just been

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getting the news about the numbers of
children who had died between ninety one and

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ninety eight. Excess deaths because of the
sanctions because of the effect of the

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sanctions and there was some argument
about what that number was I remember

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initially it was posited to be about five
hundred thousand and then within the next

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. A few years of additional research I
think. The number was close to seven hundred

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thousand during those years and then of
course we all remember I think when the

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question was posed to Madeleine Albright
about whether she thought it was worth it

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and she said yes it is worth it now I
don't know what you would call that

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that. Mass Effect of the sanctions
over those eleven years but

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why why do you think that Iraq is not
included in any of the discourse in the

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general secretary's reports about
the kinds of things that this.

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Resolution agreement is
designed to prevent. And why

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has nothing emerged at least if something
is emerged I'm not aware of it that would

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call the US to account and you know in
reading about your article I believe you

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shared that there is responsibility but
there's also accountability so how does

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that fit in. I see severe
important question I keep

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saying. If two hundred years
after the Armenian genocide in

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Turkey we starts looking for accountability
and that is hundred eighty years too

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late and right now as far as Iraq is
concerned. I'm not saying that because

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I'm in the U.S.

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That I say it's not just the Americans I
mean there were others in the Security

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Council in fact in fact one can argue
yes the engines of sanction policy

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were in London and in Washington but after
all let's not forget there were fifteen

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member countries in the Security Council
they all are accountable and right

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now they are and I belong
to those who insist that

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accountability. Is not cannot be
just for the weak and the losers

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accountability has to include everyone
we keep saying in our respective

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democracies before the law everybody is
equal Well it doesn't seem that before

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international law everybody
is equal. Maybe there is

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a deliberate effort to know to prevent
this debate to go forward and hold

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people accountable you know about.
How can we allow impunity to

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prevail when

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a country has not only. Had to face. A

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dictator. Who has been held
accountable he was he's dead but

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also international policy the
five hundred thousand. Children

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that die it's extra deaths as

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a result of sanctions is only
one example and. I would say.

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It's an academic discussion to say where
that five hundred with the six hundred

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where the seven hundred thousand I
subscribe to give you. One child

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one cumin being is so valuable
that one extra deaths as

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a result of

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a faulty policy is one death too many I
think that must be so crystal clear so I

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don't I think it's for. Dowd universities
to do research on is it five hundred

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thousand six hundred thousand is five
hundred twenty. On the political level.

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We have plenty of evidence that
people died to shouldn't have died as

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a result not of the dictator
but off of the U.N.

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Security Council policy that's important
I think that's that's one thing.

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The U.S. Yes it is correct the U.S.

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Was the lead party in that sanctions
committee six six one committee it's called

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six six one because Resolution six six one
of the six of August nine hundred ninety

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where they were the engine together with
the British That is correct about the

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others condone the other student not get
out of their seat and walk out and say we

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don't continue to do that it was eight
the term that I learned to dislike

225
00:22:32,17 --> 00:22:39,14
fierce Forli when I lived in barked out.
The term collateral damage. This is

226
00:22:39,15 --> 00:22:45,22
collateral damage. We have to pay
this price in the interest of

227
00:22:45,53 --> 00:22:52,39
a much broader picture about human
rights and democracy in our values

228
00:22:52,73 --> 00:22:58,03
no it cannot be but that's how it was argued
and the British and the Americans got

229
00:22:58,04 --> 00:23:04,85
away with that so they they are maybe
more accountable those governments then.

230
00:23:05,94 --> 00:23:10,25
And then the other thirteen in the Security
Council but the other thirteen old

231
00:23:10,26 --> 00:23:15,44
civil accountable I very
much believe in that and.

232
00:23:18,16 --> 00:23:25,04
The concept of smart sanctions let me
just refer to that also smart sanctions

233
00:23:25,05 --> 00:23:26,06
that concept

234
00:23:26,97 --> 00:23:33,67
a Rolls only towards the
end of. The thirteen

235
00:23:33,68 --> 00:23:39,08
years of sanctions against Iraq when
secular Jimmy Kofi Annan said these

236
00:23:39,08 --> 00:23:45,21
comprehensive all embracing sanctions
against an innocent people

237
00:23:46,07 --> 00:23:48,28
a blunt instrument here his words

238
00:23:48,32 --> 00:23:54,51
a blunt instrument that shouldn't be used
anymore so people started talking about

239
00:23:54,69 --> 00:23:59,06
smart sanctions I just completed its.

240
00:24:01,20 --> 00:24:07,47
To Columbia University to Yale to Harvard
to Brandeis to the University of Chicago

241
00:24:08,39 --> 00:24:13,53
where together with Professor joy Gordon
from Fairfield University the two of us

242
00:24:13,54 --> 00:24:17,29
try to look a little bit
at sanctions on Iraq and

243
00:24:17,30 --> 00:24:24,23
a little bit on sanctions
on Iran and. What

244
00:24:24,24 --> 00:24:30,44
do we discover in the case of Iran they
talk internationally the politicians talk

245
00:24:30,45 --> 00:24:37,10
about smart sanctions smart sanctions are
those sanctions which focus on the guilty

246
00:24:37,83 --> 00:24:44,75
and not on the innocent but in
the case of Iran. This concept

247
00:24:44,86 --> 00:24:45,12
is

248
00:24:45,13 --> 00:24:52,29
a misnomer because the sanctions in that
implications for the Iranian people are almost

249
00:24:52,30 --> 00:24:59,30
as comprehensive as they were against the
Iraqi people so it's very clever you

250
00:24:59,31 --> 00:25:02,27
can say this is targeted
and therefore the U.N.

251
00:25:02,28 --> 00:25:08,01
Security Council really. Nothing to do
with that to protect the people it's

252
00:25:08,02 --> 00:25:14,85
targeted if you target the economic
sector the financial sector. How you

253
00:25:14,86 --> 00:25:20,08
by extension you think you can say you're
not targeting as in the case of Iraq the

254
00:25:20,09 --> 00:25:26,56
people but in the case of Iran the true
the brutal truth is that the Iranians are

255
00:25:26,57 --> 00:25:33,49
very very much affected by these so-called
smart sanctions in the financial and

256
00:25:33,50 --> 00:25:35,85
economic sectors so it's

257
00:25:36,80 --> 00:25:43,51
a skillful way of maintaining
comprehensiveness. But and

258
00:25:43,56 --> 00:25:48,47
yet call it smart sanctions
it's a misuse of

259
00:25:48,48 --> 00:25:54,43
a term in my view and the effects the
impact on the people in Iran increasingly

260
00:25:54,51 --> 00:26:00,39
visible people getting destitutes
the infrastructure is in such

261
00:26:00,40 --> 00:26:06,84
a way that people cannot travel easily
anymore in the education infrastructure is

262
00:26:07,03 --> 00:26:11,97
is affected so what one
sees on the horizon is

263
00:26:11,98 --> 00:26:18,89
a similar picture of destitution
as we have seen. In Iraq

264
00:26:19,91 --> 00:26:25,43
maybe Oh sure it's not like you anticipated
my next question thank you I wanted to

265
00:26:25,44 --> 00:26:32,41
hear your reflections about the sanctions
that. Are being imposed currently on

266
00:26:32,42 --> 00:26:39,13
Iran. I raised the question earlier

267
00:26:39,14 --> 00:26:45,44
about accountability.
Those countries that were

268
00:26:45,45 --> 00:26:52,33
participating in sanctions
on Iraq. Because my fear and

269
00:26:52,34 --> 00:26:59,23
my perception today is that there
is so much continued lying

270
00:26:59,27 --> 00:27:06,08
or deception going on in terms of what
is happening in Syria as there was

271
00:27:06,09 --> 00:27:11,72
about Libya and. That the end game.

272
00:27:14,40 --> 00:27:19,91
Has little to do with. The so-called.

273
00:27:21,68 --> 00:27:28,66
Support of the. Rebel forces against the

274
00:27:28,67 --> 00:27:34,73
government but rather our own interests
in both those countries as part of our

275
00:27:34,74 --> 00:27:41,05
interest in the Middle East and so
how does how do you see the the

276
00:27:41,06 --> 00:27:47,59
responsibility to protect.
That applied internationally

277
00:27:48,17 --> 00:27:52,86
is a shield for other kinds
of activities of the U.S.

278
00:27:52,87 --> 00:27:58,46
And other countries just like it was in
Iraq. And one of those things is the

279
00:27:58,47 --> 00:27:59,15
carrying out of

280
00:27:59,26 --> 00:28:05,73
a proxy war against Syria
as I understand it well.

281
00:28:07,25 --> 00:28:08,13
If I came

282
00:28:08,14 --> 00:28:14,77
a step back but coming back to Syria
I. Would like to remind ourselves

283
00:28:15,75 --> 00:28:22,60
of what happened in the first application
of this concept responsibility to protect

284
00:28:22,96 --> 00:28:29,02
it was Libya no other president
in two thousand and five summit.

285
00:28:30,83 --> 00:28:33,93
Began to accept the R two P.

286
00:28:33,94 --> 00:28:34,12
As

287
00:28:34,13 --> 00:28:41,18
a form tool. Form of responsibility
in the international toolkit

288
00:28:42,85 --> 00:28:46,33
it's. What you say strikes

289
00:28:46,34 --> 00:28:53,25
a strong chord with me you talk about lying
this and misinformation in the case of

290
00:28:53,26 --> 00:29:00,20
Syria. Let's look at what
happened in Libya it it's

291
00:29:00,21 --> 00:29:05,69
an immense when you start looking at the
resolution this resolution one nine seven

292
00:29:05,70 --> 00:29:10,05
three that was adopted in two thousand and
eleven in the spring of two thousand and

293
00:29:10,06 --> 00:29:15,44
eleven what do we read there let
me look here at my notes it says.

294
00:29:17,37 --> 00:29:22,74
And this was the is the difference to Iraq
where we had no fly zones also these no

295
00:29:22,75 --> 00:29:29,42
fly zones in Iraq were illegal and no the
no fly zone in Libya was legal whether we

296
00:29:29,43 --> 00:29:33,77
like it or not the Security Council adopted
didn't that made it internationally

297
00:29:34,19 --> 00:29:41,06
legally correct OK in
that resolution we read

298
00:29:41,07 --> 00:29:41,53
about

299
00:29:41,63 --> 00:29:48,87
a flight ban no. Planes
in Libyan airspace The

300
00:29:48,88 --> 00:29:55,87
second thing is you call it no boots
on the ground nor foreign military on

301
00:29:55,93 --> 00:30:02,08
Libyan soil third is an
arms embargo the force is

302
00:30:02,68 --> 00:30:08,100
freezing the assets of
the government. And. The

303
00:30:09,09 --> 00:30:15,43
justification for that was.
We must protect the Libyan

304
00:30:15,45 --> 00:30:22,04
civilian population. All
right so far so good but

305
00:30:22,05 --> 00:30:26,98
then when it was all over in October of two
thousand and eleven How did the picture

306
00:30:26,99 --> 00:30:33,66
look. First of all it didn't
take long before the French the

307
00:30:33,67 --> 00:30:35,96
British and in the background

308
00:30:35,97 --> 00:30:42,92
a bit the Americans openly discussed
regime change. So was it about

309
00:30:42,93 --> 00:30:49,72
protecting the people or was it about
regime change Secondly there were armed

310
00:30:49,76 --> 00:30:56,76
militias the outside arms them. There
were four no boots on the ground well

311
00:30:56,77 --> 00:31:02,91
they were following special forces on the
ground and maybe not I just want to say

312
00:31:02,92 --> 00:31:09,20
maybe not in visible identifiable
uniforms but in some civilian clothes.

313
00:31:10,38 --> 00:31:17,32
I don't think the Libyan air space has
ever had more traffic. During the years

314
00:31:17,33 --> 00:31:18,57
when they were supposed to be not

315
00:31:18,72 --> 00:31:23,54
a no fly zone planes were
flying all the time but only of

316
00:31:23,55 --> 00:31:28,83
a kind these were NATO planes and
by the way just to show you how.

317
00:31:30,67 --> 00:31:37,60
Complicated and fragmented this
so-called NATO alliance is only five

318
00:31:37,64 --> 00:31:43,93
only five of the twenty eight NATO
member countries actually participated

319
00:31:44,15 --> 00:31:51,01
with military equipment in
that Libyan. Adventure. My

320
00:31:51,02 --> 00:31:56,90
own country while we were criticized from
all sides some said you should avoid veto

321
00:31:56,91 --> 00:32:01,39
do it others said you should have supported
it we abstained but was probably

322
00:32:01,40 --> 00:32:06,89
a weak response but anyway NATO planes
were flying all over the place yes

323
00:32:06,93 --> 00:32:13,30
government accounts were frozen but money
was flowing freely to the opposition. And

324
00:32:14,07 --> 00:32:20,03
the secretary general and now we are coming
to what you call lying in good American

325
00:32:20,04 --> 00:32:25,82
plain language you say lying I said once
does and misinformation and American

326
00:32:25,83 --> 00:32:31,78
friend interrupted me and said Just call
it lying OK so the second to Jenny of NATO

327
00:32:32,23 --> 00:32:39,15
the former Danish Prime Minister Rasmussen
he had the audacity to go before

328
00:32:39,53 --> 00:32:45,66
the world and declare that the Libyan
mission of NATO on behalf of the United

329
00:32:45,67 --> 00:32:52,53
Nations Security Council had been
successful so what is this that is lying

330
00:32:52,91 --> 00:32:58,88
dishonest it simply isn't correct I heard
him say this at the forty eighth Munich

331
00:32:58,92 --> 00:33:05,76
Security Conference last last February
this year and he also repeated it in the

332
00:33:05,77 --> 00:33:08,72
annual report on NATO and it was simply

333
00:33:08,76 --> 00:33:14,93
a wrong and incorrect and
and terribly unethical

334
00:33:15,01 --> 00:33:21,19
response to the reality and to the fact
that these three governments that where the

335
00:33:21,20 --> 00:33:27,55
new state the French the British and the
Americans had openly declared after

336
00:33:27,56 --> 00:33:30,53
a while this is about
regime change it's not

337
00:33:30,54 --> 00:33:36,89
a lot protecting the civilian population
and certainly not protecting those

338
00:33:37,38 --> 00:33:44,29
in quote innocent people that were on
the Gadhafi side. So you know and then

339
00:33:44,96 --> 00:33:50,92
are you surprised when you now look at the
news and you see the Security Council

340
00:33:51,17 --> 00:33:57,29
and you see the Russians and the and Chinese
abstaining vetoing bombarding any of

341
00:33:57,30 --> 00:34:03,68
the of these attempts to. Well
Mrs Clinton wants to have this

342
00:34:04,61 --> 00:34:11,45
Friends of Syria. Group of lobbyists
to to swing the balance so

343
00:34:11,46 --> 00:34:15,52
that there is more are there more arms and
there's more support flying to the OP of

344
00:34:15,56 --> 00:34:21,17
flowing to the opposition and they are
gainst that. And I think this is not an

345
00:34:21,18 --> 00:34:27,83
ideological statement it's affection
state in my opinion that. The

346
00:34:27,84 --> 00:34:34,64
United Nations cannot possibly
support regime change where would we

347
00:34:34,65 --> 00:34:39,34
end up if suddenly in the Security Council
you say well sorry the government of

348
00:34:39,35 --> 00:34:45,48
Germany under Mrs Merkel is no good it
should call or some other country in Africa

349
00:34:45,49 --> 00:34:49,82
and Latin America Asia the same it's
not possible that's not what the U.N.

350
00:34:49,86 --> 00:34:53,76
Is about the U.N. Wasn't created
to to be about that the U.N.

351
00:34:53,77 --> 00:34:57,33
Was created to prepare to have to have

352
00:34:57,37 --> 00:35:03,13
a forum where people could
come together and discuss

353
00:35:03,14 --> 00:35:09,74
a conflict and solve it hopefully
peacefully and there is no more there is no

354
00:35:09,75 --> 00:35:16,66
such concept as an aggressive
UN initiated military

355
00:35:16,67 --> 00:35:21,72
confrontation the UN is very clear on that
the UN Charter as an Article fifty one

356
00:35:21,97 --> 00:35:28,27
in which it says you can
respond with military force

357
00:35:28,87 --> 00:35:35,64
for the sake of self defense
that's all soul what the

358
00:35:35,89 --> 00:35:41,37
chief prosecutor in Nuremberg
in the trial against Nazi

359
00:35:42,26 --> 00:35:48,88
criminals. Pronounced an
American Judge Jackson Robert

360
00:35:48,89 --> 00:35:55,28
Jackson who said the worst crime you
can commit is the crime of aggression

361
00:35:55,58 --> 00:36:02,55
Well what did we do on the nineteenth
of March in moving into Iraq that was

362
00:36:03,32 --> 00:36:09,44
that was aggression and was not self-defense
self-defense nine hundred ninety one

363
00:36:09,75 --> 00:36:12,75
Operation Desert Storm U.S.

364
00:36:12,76 --> 00:36:16,91
Led coalition was completely
legal you cannot have

365
00:36:16,92 --> 00:36:21,76
a country marching into the new. Bring
countries where said Iraq marching into

366
00:36:21,90 --> 00:36:28,65
Kuwait so that was legal why
was it then not illegal when

367
00:36:28,66 --> 00:36:32,50
you moved in on the
nineteenth of March with

368
00:36:32,54 --> 00:36:38,97
a coalition force into Iraq to get rid
of the dictator maybe that was the real

369
00:36:38,98 --> 00:36:45,96
answer but allegedly because you wanted
to bring responsibility to protect to

370
00:36:45,97 --> 00:36:51,100
the Iraqi people anyway I'm just trying to
show you how this concept for the first

371
00:36:52,01 --> 00:36:54,78
time and the only time so far are two P.

372
00:36:54,79 --> 00:37:00,86
Was applied in the case of Libya and
lying in the case of Syria there is

373
00:37:00,90 --> 00:37:07,78
absolutely no chance for a consensus
to do the same in Syria because it was

374
00:37:07,79 --> 00:37:12,78
a hidden agenda again I talked earlier about
that he had an agenda you pretend it's

375
00:37:12,79 --> 00:37:18,55
about when I say you I don't mean us I
mean those in the Security Council support

376
00:37:18,56 --> 00:37:25,23
that including the US You pretend
it's to protect protect who

377
00:37:25,27 --> 00:37:32,23
whom the Syrian people or
your own interests. That's

378
00:37:32,24 --> 00:37:38,28
where that's why I. Consider
our own and. It gets fuzzy

379
00:37:39,13 --> 00:37:45,38
in the sense that the world
suits still the world doesn't

380
00:37:45,39 --> 00:37:49,63
react the standing assembly
should react there is

381
00:37:49,64 --> 00:37:55,52
a way there is one way only one but
it's one way in which the U.N.

382
00:37:55,53 --> 00:38:00,64
General Assembly can say what you fifteen
and the UN Security Council would you are

383
00:38:00,65 --> 00:38:04,41
doing there we don't accept
and that just called

384
00:38:04,84 --> 00:38:11,16
a uniting uniting for peace resolution that
is Resolution three seven seven if you

385
00:38:11,17 --> 00:38:17,93
like to read more about it Resolution three
seven seven of nine hundred fifty where

386
00:38:17,94 --> 00:38:24,37
it was said if two thirds of the
member countries of the United Nations

387
00:38:24,63 --> 00:38:27,04
objects to a decision by the U.N.

388
00:38:27,05 --> 00:38:32,84
Security Council then the Security
Council has overruled and that

389
00:38:33,73 --> 00:38:40,54
should be now the order of the day to do
that but where do you see it. Why why is

390
00:38:40,55 --> 00:38:44,80
it why one can speculate but in
the case of Iraq when it was

391
00:38:44,81 --> 00:38:48,78
a question of deciding over
whether or not there should be in

392
00:38:48,97 --> 00:38:55,82
a war against invasion. It was Secretary
of State Colin Powell who travelled

393
00:38:55,83 --> 00:39:02,14
and rode and said if you support this
resolution this uniting for peace

394
00:39:02,15 --> 00:39:04,54
resolution we in the U.S.

395
00:39:04,55 --> 00:39:10,65
Government consider that as his words
as an unfriendly act and it will have

396
00:39:10,66 --> 00:39:17,25
implications that's bribery because for
many of the poor countries that meant

397
00:39:18,22 --> 00:39:22,61
cutting off. Your April and

398
00:39:22,62 --> 00:39:29,59
a footnote here and I stopped before.
Just to make that point when on the

399
00:39:29,60 --> 00:39:35,96
sixth of August nineteen ninety the Security
Council voted on sanctions on Iraq.

400
00:39:37,08 --> 00:39:42,59
There was one country that didn't
vote for that and that was Yemen

401
00:39:44,41 --> 00:39:50,13
and at the end of this voting the American
investment went over to his colleague

402
00:39:50,40 --> 00:39:56,84
from Yemen and said Ambassador
this was the most expensive vote

403
00:39:57,11 --> 00:40:03,45
you have if your country has ever carried
out. And the week following week the aid

404
00:40:03,46 --> 00:40:04,52
program to to

405
00:40:04,53 --> 00:40:10,02
a very poor one of the poorest countries
on Earth Yemen was stopped by the U.S.

406
00:40:10,06 --> 00:40:15,71
That's bribery. And when we have that's
part blackmail bribery whatever you want to

407
00:40:15,72 --> 00:40:22,56
call it and. I don't think I need
to stress what these kind of

408
00:40:22,60 --> 00:40:29,59
acts do to international
relations what they do to trust

409
00:40:29,60 --> 00:40:33,41
among each other and over
time this has reached not

410
00:40:33,42 --> 00:40:36,98
a boiling point and today the U.N.

411
00:40:36,99 --> 00:40:43,84
Security Council is so immensely
divided that there's no chance

412
00:40:44,78 --> 00:40:51,69
at all that they will do anything. To
apply these concepts are to pee in the

413
00:40:51,70 --> 00:40:54,54
case of Syria there's

414
00:40:54,55 --> 00:40:59,58
a lot more to say but let me just not do
the monologue but I have one last question

415
00:40:59,58 --> 00:41:03,67
. Since we've exceeded our half our time.

416
00:41:06,51 --> 00:41:11,56
I go to Israel in the West Bank
almost every year sometimes twice

417
00:41:11,57 --> 00:41:18,09
a year and I know that Kerry and go
frequently especially into Gaza.

418
00:41:19,30 --> 00:41:25,54
And maybe many of the others if you do
too it's my question is What are your

419
00:41:25,55 --> 00:41:31,24
reflections about the responsibility to
protect in relation to the Palestinian

420
00:41:31,25 --> 00:41:38,10
people. There is an obvious on so which

421
00:41:38,11 --> 00:41:45,02
is Blue-Eyed and naive and that of
course is that the United Nations

422
00:41:45,03 --> 00:41:45,35
has

423
00:41:45,50 --> 00:41:52,47
a responsibility to. Continue
year after year to apply this

424
00:41:52,48 --> 00:41:58,96
concept to and the Palestinian
to the Palestinians there's no

425
00:41:58,97 --> 00:42:00,45
question that the U.N.

426
00:42:01,80 --> 00:42:04,18
Security Council and the
General Assembly have

427
00:42:04,19 --> 00:42:10,99
a responsibility to protect by admitting
the whole question of the status of

428
00:42:11,00 --> 00:42:17,75
Palestine. Is an example of.
The weakness of the current

429
00:42:17,79 --> 00:42:24,57
international structure. There
shouldn't have been any. Let me

430
00:42:24,58 --> 00:42:30,26
hold here and just remind us to
make the point better. Last July

431
00:42:31,41 --> 00:42:36,85
southern Sudan became the hundred and
ninety third member country of the United

432
00:42:36,86 --> 00:42:40,39
Nations that took no time it was in

433
00:42:40,40 --> 00:42:46,58
a week that this all were settled and
arranged how many more decades must the

434
00:42:46,59 --> 00:42:51,32
Palestinians wait they have been waiting
since nine hundred forty eight sixty seven

435
00:42:51,33 --> 00:42:51,76
you can pick

436
00:42:51,77 --> 00:42:58,15
a date but for many many years have they
waited to get that which others gets sort

437
00:42:58,16 --> 00:43:05,04
of bye. BYE BYE BYE the shortest possible
route and that is membership first of

438
00:43:05,26 --> 00:43:11,96
first or statehood and secondly
membership and it is shameful that almost

439
00:43:11,97 --> 00:43:18,47
a year after. Abu Marson
the prime minister of of

440
00:43:18,48 --> 00:43:24,48
Palestine has had applied to the UN
Security Council for membership and.

441
00:43:25,69 --> 00:43:31,98
Council decided on procedural grounds to
sit on the paper not act on it and nothing

442
00:43:31,99 --> 00:43:38,52
is changed saw. Responsibility
to Protect is very

443
00:43:38,53 --> 00:43:44,01
selective in the attempt
to apply it and it has

444
00:43:44,02 --> 00:43:45,53
a very it has

445
00:43:45,54 --> 00:43:51,17
a very short history and it will continue
to have that short history as long as.

446
00:43:52,33 --> 00:43:58,03
We have the stubble stand you know.
Thank you for answering my question.

447
00:44:02,23 --> 00:44:08,89
Of course. Thank you. So

448
00:44:09,15 --> 00:44:14,83
we would like to have questions from
you and I'm sitting here filling up my

449
00:44:14,84 --> 00:44:19,49
notebook with lots of questions that I
would ask and I'm grateful to you for

450
00:44:19,50 --> 00:44:22,74
addressing the issue of. Hard to imagine

451
00:44:22,75 --> 00:44:29,27
a. Swiss cheese and how we
protect that state from the

452
00:44:29,77 --> 00:44:36,72
community an ongoing heartache.
Do you have questions

453
00:44:37,40 --> 00:44:42,89
yes I am a circularly engineer and
I learned that you can never build

454
00:44:42,90 --> 00:44:48,59
a stable structure on the wrong phone the
Asians. When I look at the map of the

455
00:44:48,60 --> 00:44:55,38
world live today in Africa and Asia the
borders with their own by colonial

456
00:44:55,39 --> 00:45:02,30
powers that divide the tribes and.
The reasons for the genocides and

457
00:45:02,31 --> 00:45:08,43
all the troubles that we see in.
Rwanda and in other places as well.

458
00:45:09,88 --> 00:45:15,30
That's one side of the map of the world
actually is fundamentally wrong or based on

459
00:45:15,31 --> 00:45:22,02
the wrong foundations the other wrong thing
is that we created this this functional

460
00:45:22,42 --> 00:45:28,25
police organization called the United
Nations. Which in my opinion actually is

461
00:45:28,26 --> 00:45:33,81
something to laugh at it's not really
something to respect I came from third world

462
00:45:33,82 --> 00:45:39,13
country and we laugh quite frankly about
the United Nations because this is kind of

463
00:45:39,14 --> 00:45:45,52
a club for the big boys to legitimize
their actually getting their colonial

464
00:45:45,53 --> 00:45:52,48
interests is still going about.
My question to you is since you

465
00:45:52,49 --> 00:45:58,33
also mentioned that if two thirds of the
membership of the General Assembly can

466
00:45:58,34 --> 00:46:05,29
overrule the. Security Council
why wouldn't somebody like you.

467
00:46:06,36 --> 00:46:06,88
Lead

468
00:46:06,92 --> 00:46:13,60
a war little boy movement to actually keep
the United Nations on more respectable

469
00:46:13,61 --> 00:46:19,64
phone the. Thank you for
your question I would in my

470
00:46:20,40 --> 00:46:25,86
seminars at the university I'm teaching
in Germany now I always say the United

471
00:46:25,87 --> 00:46:31,06
Nations has many faces.
The United Nations has

472
00:46:31,07 --> 00:46:36,23
a political face that's the face we've
talked about here the Security Council the

473
00:46:36,24 --> 00:46:42,71
General Assembly. But one must not
forget the fifty five thousand

474
00:46:43,06 --> 00:46:48,54
international civil servants that
are every single day maybe in

475
00:46:48,55 --> 00:46:54,95
a bureaucratic way maybe not as
competent as some expect but fifty five

476
00:46:54,96 --> 00:47:01,14
thousand people in the whole system the
World Health Organization Eunice Yoon at

477
00:47:01,15 --> 00:47:08,12
school UNICEF the Food and Agriculture
Organization and the many others are trying

478
00:47:08,13 --> 00:47:14,63
a spaced is their care and with very limited
resources to do that which is in this

479
00:47:14,64 --> 00:47:21,40
UN Charter I want to protect them I want
to say they do what one should do the

480
00:47:21,41 --> 00:47:27,81
political side is the problem and
space no shortage I hand out to my

481
00:47:27,82 --> 00:47:34,65
students three sheet three
page sheet which shows fifteen

482
00:47:34,66 --> 00:47:36,46
one five U.N.

483
00:47:36,46 --> 00:47:42,67
. Reports that have been compiled
over the over the last fifteen years

484
00:47:43,13 --> 00:47:49,68
that make very good and very strong
recommendations but the political

485
00:47:49,69 --> 00:47:56,55
will to take these and
implement doesn't exist why

486
00:47:56,71 --> 00:48:01,55
because member governments.
Well I don't want to leave

487
00:48:01,56 --> 00:48:07,13
a church here and be considered as anti
american but if Jesse Helms the chairman of

488
00:48:07,14 --> 00:48:11,21
the Foreign Relations Committee of
the U.S. Senate comes into the U.N.

489
00:48:11,22 --> 00:48:17,61
Security Council when I am an octet after
Lloyd Axworthy Canadian foreign ministers

490
00:48:17,62 --> 00:48:22,92
had just said the United Nations is
there for the benefit of all its member

491
00:48:22,93 --> 00:48:29,89
countries and Jesse Helms comes and says
pointing at these fifteen bastards that

492
00:48:29,90 --> 00:48:34,26
sit there if you do what we
want you to do in the U.S.

493
00:48:34,27 --> 00:48:40,39
Congress we would support you and if you
don't do that we will marginalize you with

494
00:48:40,40 --> 00:48:47,36
that attitude you won't gets reforms on the
ground for example but first of all let

495
00:48:47,37 --> 00:48:49,92
me remind ourselves who is in the U.N.

496
00:48:49,96 --> 00:48:55,79
Security Council. The P five
group the five permanent members

497
00:48:56,95 --> 00:48:57,20
is it

498
00:48:57,21 --> 00:49:03,23
a queen students that all five. Are
representing the winners of the Second World

499
00:49:03,24 --> 00:49:07,74
War China Russia France U.K. And the U.S.

500
00:49:08,78 --> 00:49:14,88
They are adamant to.
Initiatives they don't want.

501
00:49:15,98 --> 00:49:22,36
Major reforms that are demanded by
countries like presume Japan India

502
00:49:23,27 --> 00:49:27,53
South Africa and others who
say hey listen we represent

503
00:49:27,54 --> 00:49:33,06
a much bigger chunk of global population
than France England and so on.

504
00:49:34,62 --> 00:49:39,46
So there's a stalemate how do
we get out of this I wish I had

505
00:49:39,47 --> 00:49:46,21
a good answer for you but there is no
shortage of solid proposals to make the

506
00:49:46,22 --> 00:49:48,07
United Nations a more

507
00:49:48,11 --> 00:49:55,01
a stronger institution. The veto for example
this veto for many years it was the

508
00:49:55,02 --> 00:50:01,18
Russians who were to veto anything that
had to do with criticism of the of the

509
00:50:01,22 --> 00:50:02,46
U.S.'s R.T.

510
00:50:02,64 --> 00:50:08,93
Collection of Russian States recently
it's more the US any critical

511
00:50:08,97 --> 00:50:15,02
observation on Israel is vetoed by
the Security Council and the veto S.

512
00:50:15,03 --> 00:50:20,27
Become counterproductive so they have their
concrete proposals on how to make it

513
00:50:20,28 --> 00:50:26,37
make that council more productive one
example that I I think it's very worthy of

514
00:50:26,38 --> 00:50:30,23
consideration if you're
innocent and that is

515
00:50:31,13 --> 00:50:37,18
a two thirds majority should replace the
veto when two thirds in the UN Security

516
00:50:37,19 --> 00:50:44,03
Council are supporting something then it
should have weight but this in ordinates

517
00:50:44,60 --> 00:50:51,33
and frequent use of the Vitol by one
country that destroys than what the other

518
00:50:51,34 --> 00:50:56,51
fourteen may have been proposed is a it's

519
00:50:56,52 --> 00:51:03,33
a very big come but it's very problematic
to put it very mildly for the fourfold

520
00:51:03,34 --> 00:51:09,12
for the international community now your
other point was why don't people like I

521
00:51:09,66 --> 00:51:15,70
first of all. A diplomat in the UN. Is.

522
00:51:16,84 --> 00:51:22,05
Doesn't have political weight our weight
is the weight of conscience all weight is

523
00:51:22,06 --> 00:51:25,52
the weight of conscience
Oh wait we do not have

524
00:51:25,56 --> 00:51:31,89
a political weight except to make
sure that what we do is strictly in

525
00:51:31,90 --> 00:51:35,24
accordance with the spirit
of the letter of the U.N.

526
00:51:35,25 --> 00:51:42,00
Charter OK that's that's that's
one thing Secondly. The UN is.

527
00:51:43,37 --> 00:51:48,69
Couldn't be. Couldn't be at the level of

528
00:51:48,70 --> 00:51:55,26
a weaker level than the just right now.
Financially and otherwise if you push into

529
00:51:55,27 --> 00:51:57,57
the United Nations people who have

530
00:51:57,58 --> 00:52:03,29
a dubious background or worse who
come from intelligence it's already

531
00:52:03,45 --> 00:52:07,77
a terrible violation of this this book
defines where clearly we should work for the

532
00:52:07,78 --> 00:52:13,44
United Nations if you give to the
United Nations a budget if you approve

533
00:52:13,48 --> 00:52:20,32
a budget which is less I know what I'm
talking about less than Columbia University

534
00:52:20,33 --> 00:52:27,15
has an annual budget and if you add if you
compare the New York Fire Department and

535
00:52:27,19 --> 00:52:33,94
the New York. Of Police Department these
two I made a comparison the they have

536
00:52:33,95 --> 00:52:39,31
a a budget that is double the budget the
United Nations Yes So we are kept at

537
00:52:39,32 --> 00:52:46,14
a very low for we sayn Germany very
low flame. We are not allowed the

538
00:52:46,15 --> 00:52:52,56
leash is very short and then you expect
that a few of us who believe in the U.N.

539
00:52:52,57 --> 00:52:54,28
Where they are we are serving in the U.N.

540
00:52:54,29 --> 00:52:56,67
On not. Can make

541
00:52:56,68 --> 00:53:03,53
a big difference then I can only say to
myself the difference we can make is by

542
00:53:03,54 --> 00:53:04,62
sitting in

543
00:53:04,66 --> 00:53:09,98
a church like this one here and Steve baiting
with you trying to convince you that

544
00:53:09,99 --> 00:53:16,31
it is worse it's worth not wars it's worth
your time to reflect on these kind of

545
00:53:16,32 --> 00:53:22,88
issues the answers theoretically
available the implementation is lacking

546
00:53:23,09 --> 00:53:28,91
calm please please and that very little
courage by nations to come and stand up and

547
00:53:28,92 --> 00:53:32,95
say sorry Russia we don't accept
this sorry Russia you are

548
00:53:33,06 --> 00:53:36,50
a US we don't accept this that
isn't happening and that's

549
00:53:36,51 --> 00:53:43,24
a tragedy. Particularly in this country
when you remember who were the people I

550
00:53:43,25 --> 00:53:50,09
just this morning looked at the US
US Constitution I was interesting

551
00:53:50,30 --> 00:53:52,69
and then it struck me the U.S.

552
00:53:52,70 --> 00:53:58,31
Constitution has the same wording with one
little difference in the case of the UN

553
00:53:58,32 --> 00:53:59,08
there's an S.

554
00:53:59,38 --> 00:54:03,96
In the case of the US based the essence
like what am I talking about the US

555
00:54:03,97 --> 00:54:10,66
Constitution starts by saying we the people
of the United States and how does this

556
00:54:10,67 --> 00:54:17,52
start we the people because they're more
than one people we the people not we the

557
00:54:17,53 --> 00:54:24,36
government. And yet this booklet
makes that point about the

558
00:54:24,37 --> 00:54:31,13
people and their decisions and
their preferences. Nor. Example

559
00:54:31,83 --> 00:54:37,75
you remember when they did the protest
movements in the U.K. Against the U.S.

560
00:54:37,76 --> 00:54:42,09
And the against the U.N. Sanctions
the majority in the U.K.

561
00:54:42,10 --> 00:54:47,27
Were against sanctions the majority in Spain
way against the sanctions the majority

562
00:54:47,28 --> 00:54:51,98
in Italy where against the sanctions and
their parliaments did the opposite is that

563
00:54:51,99 --> 00:54:58,29
democracy I don't think so and then you
want humble individuals like myself

564
00:54:58,48 --> 00:55:01,10
traveling Yes We travel a lot yes we try

565
00:55:01,11 --> 00:55:07,91
a lot we ride we think we sometimes
even protest I'm very uneasy when

566
00:55:07,92 --> 00:55:13,22
I stand in front of Downing Street and
with this book unmanned and I protest

567
00:55:13,23 --> 00:55:20,05
against the Downing Street and Iraq policy
but there are attempts but who are going

568
00:55:20,09 --> 00:55:26,28
we are a small group of people
and we try but there is

569
00:55:26,29 --> 00:55:33,24
a much bigger canvas of political
decision making which leaves people

570
00:55:33,25 --> 00:55:38,41
like you and Howard does that mean we
shouldn't continue to try No it doesn't mean

571
00:55:38,42 --> 00:55:44,03
that should continue to try and
the more we in I was in Harvard

572
00:55:44,58 --> 00:55:48,17
a young person I saw in Yale I
was in Harvard too but in yearly

573
00:55:48,18 --> 00:55:53,88
a young person asked me last week what can
we do what can we as young people do and

574
00:55:53,89 --> 00:55:56,99
my answer was the best thing you can do is

575
00:55:57,00 --> 00:56:01,40
a quip yourself with knowledge because
when you have knowledge that you can fight

576
00:56:01,41 --> 00:56:08,41
back but if you don't have the knowledge
what can you do you can overwrought by

577
00:56:08,74 --> 00:56:15,23
by those who think they have
knowledge. Before you question can I.

578
00:56:16,25 --> 00:56:22,68
Ask your question Dick is going to come
among you and ask you to contribute tonight

579
00:56:22,69 --> 00:56:29,13
to support the work that
Hans is doing truly. In my

580
00:56:29,17 --> 00:56:36,03
experience of the same sions and
in the time period since then I've

581
00:56:36,04 --> 00:56:40,67
said this so many times hands if you look
up in the English dictionary and it says

582
00:56:40,68 --> 00:56:47,04
Gentleman your definition are.
Very well because you have courage

583
00:56:47,33 --> 00:56:53,91
because you have truth because you speak
these words so clearly that I think they

584
00:56:53,92 --> 00:56:59,91
compel as to be more courageous ourselves
when we were in Iraq with you you

585
00:56:59,92 --> 00:57:06,59
compelled us to continue and when we came
back we said to everyone that we could

586
00:57:06,60 --> 00:57:13,13
think of Hans Von Sponeck says because you
are the authority with integrity so I am

587
00:57:13,14 --> 00:57:18,79
deeply grateful to you go ahead next
question you mention that word sanctions.

588
00:57:20,60 --> 00:57:27,45
Explain exactly what sanctions. In this

589
00:57:27,46 --> 00:57:34,36
case against Iraq and. Well you
know they are first of all

590
00:57:34,37 --> 00:57:36,08
they are unilateral sanctions when

591
00:57:36,09 --> 00:57:43,07
a government imposes measures to
reduce the relationship between

592
00:57:43,54 --> 00:57:50,28
themselves and the country that
they think is straying off the

593
00:57:50,29 --> 00:57:56,70
power and then you have multilateral sanctions
and in the case of Iraq and Iran the

594
00:57:56,71 --> 00:58:00,98
sanctions. Imposed by the U.N.

595
00:58:01,04 --> 00:58:06,89
Security Council in the case of Iraq they
were the most comprehensive sanctions

596
00:58:07,05 --> 00:58:10,37
that had ever been. Imposed on

597
00:58:10,38 --> 00:58:17,18
a country every single individual in
that country was. What was affected by

598
00:58:17,19 --> 00:58:20,21
that example I knew

599
00:58:20,22 --> 00:58:25,94
a person who needed surgery out of Iraq
in the neighboring country Amman he had

600
00:58:25,95 --> 00:58:32,08
a bank account in England and he was not
able to get his resources to pay for the

601
00:58:32,24 --> 00:58:38,73
operation because there were sanctions so
very comprehensive this why Mr Kofi Annan

602
00:58:38,74 --> 00:58:45,17
talked about the blunt instrument of
comprehensive sanctions must be eliminated in

603
00:58:45,18 --> 00:58:51,74
the case of Iraq Iran and Iran the term I
referred to was smart sanctions but the

604
00:58:51,75 --> 00:58:58,59
impact is quite similar to that
impact that prevailed in Iraq

605
00:58:58,60 --> 00:59:01,64
so these are measures to say to

606
00:59:01,65 --> 00:59:08,13
a country we do not agree with
the way you participate in the

607
00:59:08,14 --> 00:59:14,77
community of nations and therefore we
will punish you. That I think is maybe

608
00:59:14,78 --> 00:59:21,45
a simpler way of putting
it. Well the problem with

609
00:59:21,46 --> 00:59:27,55
the. Responsibility to Protect protect and
humanitarian war is specifically United

610
00:59:27,56 --> 00:59:29,01
States that it's

611
00:59:29,02 --> 00:59:31,80
a different problem we have here in the
United States and all the other member

612
00:59:31,81 --> 00:59:38,79
countries. The historical actors to
cause wars to happen in the decision

613
00:59:38,80 --> 00:59:41,26
process to war in the United States are

614
00:59:41,27 --> 00:59:46,10
a matter of historical record it is like
the oil industry financial interests

615
00:59:46,11 --> 00:59:51,95
supporting the dollar Germany and the
general industrial base United States which

616
00:59:51,96 --> 00:59:52,78
depends on having

617
00:59:52,79 --> 00:59:58,60
a powerful dollar and forcing other countries
to sell their stuff for dollars. And

618
00:59:58,61 --> 01:00:03,69
you also have religious interests and you
have sinus interests and other interests

619
01:00:03,70 --> 01:00:07,69
that actually are part of the coalition
that causes the United States to go to war

620
01:00:08,07 --> 01:00:11,81
not of the war since at least World War
two have been self-defense and I can't

621
01:00:11,82 --> 01:00:17,45
recall if any of them were actually
humanitarian or motivated by the responsibility

622
01:00:17,46 --> 01:00:19,86
or motive to protect anybody so we have

623
01:00:19,87 --> 01:00:22,44
a really different problem here in the
United States than you might have in

624
01:00:22,45 --> 01:00:24,00
a philosophical level or

625
01:00:24,23 --> 01:00:29,83
a global United Nations approach to this
and so what I'd like to suggest is that

626
01:00:30,04 --> 01:00:33,74
these the responsibility to protect is
like the five percent in the United States

627
01:00:33,75 --> 01:00:37,72
who might have humanitarian interests and
these people are not sufficient they

628
01:00:37,73 --> 01:00:42,23
don't have enough shaft politically to
actually move the United States to protect

629
01:00:42,24 --> 01:00:47,14
any countries but instead they become
useful idiots to support the latest war and

630
01:00:47,15 --> 01:00:48,75
so they're really don't need D.N.A.

631
01:00:48,76 --> 01:00:54,41
Responsibility project to protect stuff
here in the United States. Well thank you

632
01:00:54,42 --> 01:00:59,98
for that. Opinion of yours. Well.

633
01:01:01,58 --> 01:01:08,48
It is. And. I still feel. The U.S.

634
01:01:08,48 --> 01:01:15,43
. Has to accept the concept
as it was identified

635
01:01:15,44 --> 01:01:19,92
in the U.N. Summit of two thousand
and five you know it's. It is

636
01:01:19,93 --> 01:01:25,80
a very valuable concept and in any end if
you look at it it really isn't new it's

637
01:01:26,65 --> 01:01:26,93
only in

638
01:01:26,94 --> 01:01:33,89
a formal sense new but if you read the
charter every pages about our war

639
01:01:33,93 --> 01:01:40,59
collective responsibility
to to protect and we

640
01:01:40,75 --> 01:01:47,71
go off we stray off the highway when we
apply it the way we have done it in the

641
01:01:47,72 --> 01:01:53,57
case of Libya and you know this
this hidden agenda I talk about.

642
01:01:54,71 --> 01:02:01,30
It visible when you look at other
theaters where this has as

643
01:02:02,27 --> 01:02:08,95
good intentions. Pronounced but something
quite different lurked in the background

644
01:02:08,96 --> 01:02:14,99
and Iraq is I'm very well familiar with
the Iraq situation and I can tell you it

645
01:02:15,00 --> 01:02:21,85
was it was nauseating the way we played
our game in Iraq and it had not some the

646
01:02:21,86 --> 01:02:27,28
simplistic answer is often given it's about
oil no it was about much more than oil

647
01:02:27,90 --> 01:02:33,85
it was about the control of oil it's one
thing it was about our belief that Western

648
01:02:33,86 --> 01:02:39,44
values are better than others other
countries other cultures values and similar

649
01:02:39,45 --> 01:02:45,95
things so I think. I hope so much that we

650
01:02:45,96 --> 01:02:51,64
finally not voluntarily not easily reflect

651
01:02:51,65 --> 01:02:58,30
a little bit more whether it isn't better
that we accept the ad to Regina tee off

652
01:02:58,34 --> 01:03:02,78
of this situation that we are
not with that we are willing in

653
01:03:02,79 --> 01:03:08,15
a very simplistic way I put it to you that
we're willing to recognize you can eat

654
01:03:08,16 --> 01:03:09,63
rice with

655
01:03:09,64 --> 01:03:15,70
a fork you can eat rice with chopsticks
and you can eat rice with your fingers.

656
01:03:16,54 --> 01:03:23,39
Who tells you or me that one is one
method dispenser than the other I think

657
01:03:23,40 --> 01:03:30,09
that is that they saw so clear we when
when the UN started with there were fifty

658
01:03:30,10 --> 01:03:35,53
one member countries they were mostly
Western In fact the UN was so Western that

659
01:03:35,54 --> 01:03:42,49
something happened which in international
law is probably unique Russia the US S.

660
01:03:42,50 --> 01:03:42,78
R.

661
01:03:42,79 --> 01:03:48,20
At the time had three votes in the General
Assembly you probably didn't know that three

662
01:03:48,21 --> 01:03:50,43
votes in order to create a little bit of

663
01:03:50,44 --> 01:03:57,13
a balance Ukraine and Belarus had to
Voltz together with Russia proper

664
01:03:57,51 --> 01:03:59,25
within the US S. R.

665
01:03:59,44 --> 01:04:06,30
That was one member country in the UN So
we were very Western and we because of

666
01:04:06,31 --> 01:04:08,22
our successes in

667
01:04:08,23 --> 01:04:14,82
a superficial way our successes over
the years we have come to believe

668
01:04:15,10 --> 01:04:20,96
that what we do must be the best maybe it's
good maybe others can learn but we can

669
01:04:20,97 --> 01:04:27,69
also learn from others and that mentality
that US that has to be created and

670
01:04:27,73 --> 01:04:29,75
then concepts like are too P.C.

671
01:04:30,31 --> 01:04:34,05
Received powerful meaning
but if we're using this as

672
01:04:34,06 --> 01:04:40,85
a pretext to continue to
be out for our limited

673
01:04:40,86 --> 01:04:45,03
interest. Then I'm afraid
things will go wrong

674
01:04:47,78 --> 01:04:54,73
continue to go wrong. I think you. Have

675
01:04:54,74 --> 01:04:58,13
a long admired your clarity and courage in

676
01:04:58,14 --> 01:05:04,96
a world where there's much too little
of those. Mind struggle with our two

677
01:05:04,97 --> 01:05:05,50
P.

678
01:05:06,40 --> 01:05:14,10
Is twofold and I'd like you to
comment on that first it is. While

679
01:05:14,11 --> 01:05:20,94
it's clearly there's much to
support and in more restrictive.

680
01:05:22,16 --> 01:05:28,57
In fifteen centuries of the just war
tradition just war theory has primarily

681
01:05:28,58 --> 01:05:34,09
functioned almost exclusively functioned
as justified war and R two P.

682
01:05:34,10 --> 01:05:38,59
Has the danger of being just another

683
01:05:40,76 --> 01:05:46,75
restrictive just war theory and I'm not
sure that just war it can be recovered

684
01:05:46,76 --> 01:05:53,57
a complete it can in any useful way
Secondly it is primarily dependent

685
01:05:53,61 --> 01:05:59,78
on military answers so my question
to you is how do you see R two P.

686
01:05:59,79 --> 01:06:05,74
Relating to just war and
secondly what is the world of

687
01:06:06,85 --> 01:06:12,31
nonviolent intervention in R two P.

688
01:06:12,43 --> 01:06:19,29
Or in any on any global scale Thank you.

689
01:06:21,02 --> 01:06:27,72
First of all I think. I pieced
in century Europe the bait about

690
01:06:27,73 --> 01:06:34,45
just war is over. It's today
about just peace and no longer

691
01:06:34,46 --> 01:06:40,16
about just war and
people do remember. The.

692
01:06:41,28 --> 01:06:47,93
Sermon of the mount and what it
says in there about. Conflicts and

693
01:06:47,94 --> 01:06:54,62
about. This whole idea of just wars reject
it even then but over the years the

694
01:06:54,63 --> 01:07:01,42
churches have restarted Now I remember when
I resigned from Iraq and I was invited

695
01:07:01,46 --> 01:07:06,97
by the Protestant church in Germany to speak
and they were defending the concept of

696
01:07:06,98 --> 01:07:13,42
just war I was so horrified No
the ultimate arts Your it's just

697
01:07:13,43 --> 01:07:16,65
war but today you don't
see that anymore I have

698
01:07:16,66 --> 01:07:21,45
a very interesting unfortunates in German
otherwise I would give it to you paper on

699
01:07:21,46 --> 01:07:27,59
this subject where the conclusion is this
is no longer acceptable and R two P.

700
01:07:27,63 --> 01:07:33,73
Yes I do agree fully with you the danger
is stairs we have seen in Libya that what

701
01:07:33,74 --> 01:07:39,51
is perceived to be a just war.
Then is given the title R two P.

702
01:07:40,31 --> 01:07:47,12
But that I think is not acceptable and we
see in the case of Syria it doesn't float

703
01:07:47,13 --> 01:07:53,87
to doesn't go then. This whole booklet is

704
01:07:53,88 --> 01:07:58,21
a bargain on violence solution
of conflicts and there is

705
01:07:58,22 --> 01:08:02,20
a chapter six that makes
that point and there's

706
01:08:02,21 --> 01:08:08,99
a Chapter seven that says under exceptional
circumstances not just war but

707
01:08:09,03 --> 01:08:15,95
just the right of self-defense the right
of self in other words you can react

708
01:08:15,96 --> 01:08:22,77
militarily if it is very clear.
That you are about to be attacked

709
01:08:23,69 --> 01:08:28,98
you can do that but it is for the Security
Council that must legitimize that

710
01:08:29,40 --> 01:08:34,92
Security Council doesn't do that then what
do you think is your right of response

711
01:08:34,93 --> 01:08:41,32
because you perceive that somebody is
about to attack you is illegal so the

712
01:08:41,33 --> 01:08:43,82
preference of course this

713
01:08:43,83 --> 01:08:50,53
a peace organization the preference
is to apply nonviolent means of

714
01:08:50,54 --> 01:08:57,01
conflict resolution you know and
the the problem is that this

715
01:08:57,02 --> 01:09:03,28
booklet. Is used like you use a tool in

716
01:09:03,29 --> 01:09:09,94
a box when it suits you again not you
us but you international community

717
01:09:10,19 --> 01:09:16,94
you use it and if it is not useful you
ignore it March nineteenth two thousand and

718
01:09:16,95 --> 01:09:23,67
three the British and the American
governments said this tool we need

719
01:09:23,82 --> 01:09:30,06
isn't here therefore we leave and it was
became an illegal invasion into Iraq in

720
01:09:30,07 --> 01:09:35,32
one thousand nine hundred ninety. The
British and American said We need that tool

721
01:09:35,93 --> 01:09:37,41
to protect

722
01:09:37,42 --> 01:09:44,28
a country that was invaded it was
legal so sometimes it's used

723
01:09:44,29 --> 01:09:50,19
correctly sometimes it's not used correctly
it was labia was another case where

724
01:09:50,51 --> 01:09:55,35
this was not condoned by the UN The told
what happened the NATO attack on on

725
01:09:55,36 --> 01:10:02,31
Yugoslavia so you can't selectively
use this. And let me also say

726
01:10:02,32 --> 01:10:03,31
they sometimes

727
01:10:03,32 --> 01:10:10,02
a year or my god you blue eyed boy what
you are proposing here is so fantastic

728
01:10:10,18 --> 01:10:13,53
I propose nothing yet
seen here and if you are

729
01:10:13,54 --> 01:10:18,63
a member of the United Nations then this
is for you international law and when

730
01:10:18,64 --> 01:10:19,63
Colonel Gaddafi

731
01:10:19,64 --> 01:10:25,71
a few years ago went to the UN Stern assembly
to make the speeches these wonderful

732
01:10:25,96 --> 01:10:31,70
rhetorical statements the best the world
has seen or heard but the moment they walk

733
01:10:31,71 --> 01:10:36,57
out of the General Assembly they do something
quite differently but Gadhafi took

734
01:10:36,58 --> 01:10:42,77
this booklet and he wanted to rip it thank
God it was too thick he couldn't repair

735
01:10:42,78 --> 01:10:49,31
it but the point is every member country
is at liberty to say goodbye to the United

736
01:10:49,32 --> 01:10:54,00
Nations but as long as there are they are
members this is not the new I'd stuff

737
01:10:54,01 --> 01:11:00,85
this is an obligation and legal obligation
to abide by this thing you know yes it's

738
01:11:00,91 --> 01:11:06,46
that's not polite if you violate it the
onus is on you to try to rectify it not on

739
01:11:06,47 --> 01:11:13,37
me who reminds you of this so it's
that double standards we are we

740
01:11:13,38 --> 01:11:19,34
having this frightful legacy of double
standards in international relations year

741
01:11:19,35 --> 01:11:20,90
after year and if

742
01:11:20,91 --> 01:11:26,09
a country is so powerful as the United
States of America its military then it gets

743
01:11:26,10 --> 01:11:30,77
away with that should it get away with it
no it should not will it in the future

744
01:11:30,78 --> 01:11:36,57
get away I don't think so. Because we
are undergoing maybe not so noticeable

745
01:11:36,93 --> 01:11:42,89
fundamental about but really fundamental
changes in international relations right

746
01:11:42,90 --> 01:11:49,88
now the eastern extension of NATO is grooming
Russia its own new enemy these empty

747
01:11:50,53 --> 01:11:56,47
empty missile defense systems that we are
building in in Turkey Spain remain here

748
01:11:56,48 --> 01:12:02,82
and Poland now after Czech dropped out
and Germany being a help which hurts me

749
01:12:02,83 --> 01:12:08,83
a lot I think the German public hasn't
realized it yet because it's very new is

750
01:12:08,87 --> 01:12:10,15
grooming Russia as

751
01:12:10,16 --> 01:12:16,32
a new enemy and forgive me. The current US

752
01:12:16,33 --> 01:12:19,78
administration. Trowed announcement of

753
01:12:19,79 --> 01:12:26,32
a new Pacific Policy is
grooming China as the new anime

754
01:12:26,72 --> 01:12:32,04
you know you can compete with China but
you can compete peacefully with China but

755
01:12:32,05 --> 01:12:38,96
you don't start in South Korea
in the Philippines in Vietnam

756
01:12:39,16 --> 01:12:44,61
in Australia to start expanding your bases
your military presence and hope that you

757
01:12:44,62 --> 01:12:50,48
will contain China no you will not contain
China who are we this morning I looked

758
01:12:50,49 --> 01:12:52,87
up the numbers you have

759
01:12:52,88 --> 01:12:57,72
a population of about three hundred million
American citizens in Canada there are

760
01:12:57,73 --> 01:13:01,50
another thirty eight million people
that makes it three hundred C.

761
01:13:01,51 --> 01:13:07,45
Three hundred fifty in Europe to your Europe
has about five hundred million people

762
01:13:07,63 --> 01:13:12,33
that makes eight hundred fifty million
people out of seven point three billion

763
01:13:12,34 --> 01:13:15,55
people. We are we are just as

764
01:13:15,56 --> 01:13:21,25
a minority and so we are increasingly
we in Europe and you here are.

765
01:13:22,28 --> 01:13:29,22
Increasingly. Incapable
of calling the shots. So

766
01:13:29,23 --> 01:13:36,02
what are we doing why are we then going
that road of more confrontation and I

767
01:13:36,03 --> 01:13:40,96
see it I see it so clearly in front of
me now because what is brewing What is

768
01:13:40,97 --> 01:13:45,42
linked for example to the specific
policy change of the U.S.

769
01:13:46,08 --> 01:13:52,36
Is intimately linked to developments
in Central Asia after two thousand and

770
01:13:52,37 --> 01:13:53,98
fourteen when the U.S.

771
01:13:53,99 --> 01:13:58,34
And international coalition forces
come home what do we leave behind

772
01:13:58,52 --> 01:14:05,47
a totally confused fragmented
Central Asia not just Afghanistan

773
01:14:05,96 --> 01:14:11,45
and then sides would be taken who some will
go with the US Some will go with China

774
01:14:11,73 --> 01:14:12,12
and we have

775
01:14:12,13 --> 01:14:18,94
a beautiful new major conflict and
that cannot possibly know well

776
01:14:18,95 --> 01:14:23,65
for our whole world of
tomorrow unless we find.

777
01:14:26,14 --> 01:14:32,62
A roundabout where we can
change direction thank you.

778
01:14:34,26 --> 01:14:38,48
Yes. Even though my eyes
aren't blue it's OK.

779
01:14:42,22 --> 01:14:47,41
If you held up several times to the charter
of the United Nations it occurred to me

780
01:14:47,94 --> 01:14:53,12
that essentially there is no oversight
on whatever actions the Security Council

781
01:14:53,13 --> 01:14:59,22
takes is one of the proposed reforms
leaving aside all the political

782
01:14:59,72 --> 01:15:06,11
difficulties of implementing it having
an independent court. The same way as in

783
01:15:06,12 --> 01:15:11,04
principle we contend we have in this
country an independent court system which

784
01:15:11,05 --> 01:15:16,42
compares the actions of Congress with the
Constitution of the United States has

785
01:15:16,43 --> 01:15:16,96
that been

786
01:15:17,25 --> 01:15:24,00
a proposal put forth for the United Nations
not to my knowledge. No To my knowledge

787
01:15:24,05 --> 01:15:26,09
no. We have

788
01:15:26,10 --> 01:15:31,06
a court system we have the International
Criminal Court which is an institution and

789
01:15:31,07 --> 01:15:34,35
we have the International Court
of Justice which is a U.N.

790
01:15:34,35 --> 01:15:41,03
. Body and I don't know of any suggestion

791
01:15:41,28 --> 01:15:44,29
that would introduce what I
think is so needed and that is

792
01:15:44,33 --> 01:15:48,90
a system of accountability.
Second Court which is

793
01:15:48,91 --> 01:15:55,55
a United Nations court have
in its preview the ability to

794
01:15:55,56 --> 01:16:01,91
judge actions as they are actually carried
out for example in Libya and stand up

795
01:16:01,92 --> 01:16:08,08
and judge independently it's this is in
violation of the actual charms of the

796
01:16:08,09 --> 01:16:11,08
resolution in. Is that

797
01:16:11,10 --> 01:16:16,27
a possibility legally the first part of
your question the answer is yes they have

798
01:16:16,46 --> 01:16:16,74
that's

799
01:16:16,75 --> 01:16:23,68
a possibility are they impartial. I

800
01:16:23,69 --> 01:16:27,89
don't think so and the International Court
of Justice which is not even the U.N.

801
01:16:27,90 --> 01:16:34,65
Court has tried seven Africans
Yes we are the European

802
01:16:35,04 --> 01:16:41,29
Yes we are the Americans yes we are
the Asians Yes So it's partially.

803
01:16:42,42 --> 01:16:48,92
Now people accept this when I say that but
that's the fact you know well I could

804
01:16:48,93 --> 01:16:55,81
add to that because I asked the question
about genocide. Lawyers on my behalf the

805
01:16:55,82 --> 01:17:01,88
government on the issue of genocide saying
five hundred thousand children children

806
01:17:01,89 --> 01:17:08,05
is arguably genocide and the federal
judge upheld by the appeals court

807
01:17:08,84 --> 01:17:14,22
said we don't need to hear whether or not
the evidence whether this is genocide we

808
01:17:14,23 --> 01:17:20,26
have to accept it was genocide but Congress
has immunize itself from any threat

809
01:17:21,23 --> 01:17:23,22
of suit in

810
01:17:23,23 --> 01:17:28,73
a federal court of genocide so they just
missed the case and I think that's an

811
01:17:28,74 --> 01:17:35,36
awful and stunning indictment of our court
system. Where the Supreme Court even

812
01:17:35,37 --> 01:17:37,00
would not hear the case here

813
01:17:37,01 --> 01:17:44,00
a petition. Essentially concluding that
if Congress wishes to commit genocide our

814
01:17:44,01 --> 01:17:47,94
court system will not look at that in the
same way as they will not look at the

815
01:17:47,95 --> 01:17:50,73
issue of the supreme international crime

816
01:17:50,74 --> 01:17:56,26
a war of aggression as you pointed out so
I just wish people to know that thank you

817
01:17:57,18 --> 01:18:04,03
thank you OK. To this.

818
01:18:09,03 --> 01:18:09,97
This is a U.N.

819
01:18:09,98 --> 01:18:16,95
Court. Cases against the actions
carried out by the Security Council is

820
01:18:16,96 --> 01:18:23,12
my understanding is that there is no jury
judiciary body in the world that could

821
01:18:23,69 --> 01:18:23,87
take

822
01:18:23,88 --> 01:18:30,89
a case against security. The
International Court of Justice the UN to

823
01:18:30,90 --> 01:18:35,98
get judicial body can entertain only.

824
01:18:37,08 --> 01:18:43,80
Requests from state parties OK if two
states agree and most often the warring

825
01:18:43,81 --> 01:18:45,72
parties Iraq U.S.

826
01:18:45,73 --> 01:18:51,16
For example don't agree together to go to
the International Court of Justice but

827
01:18:51,42 --> 01:18:57,73
interesting the UN Court of
Justice can also issue at the

828
01:18:57,74 --> 01:19:01,07
request of any of any U.N.

829
01:19:01,08 --> 01:19:07,86
Body only UN bodies if the World Health
Organization or UNICEF or want to

830
01:19:07,92 --> 01:19:13,63
ask the court of justice for an
advisory opinion they can do so

831
01:19:15,15 --> 01:19:21,84
and in that case the International
Court of Justice Court theoretically.

832
01:19:23,02 --> 01:19:27,97
And so. Regarding policies by the U.N.

833
01:19:27,98 --> 01:19:34,63
Security Council but it hasn't happened.
Now you can ask why has it not happen

834
01:19:35,30 --> 01:19:41,70
I think I can speculate but
couldn't initiate it. And

835
01:19:42,51 --> 01:19:47,57
the director general of the World Health
Organization could initiate that case you

836
01:19:47,58 --> 01:19:53,01
are still I do you and working for the UN
could you have done as an individual no.

837
01:19:54,11 --> 01:19:56,42
Where as late as just as a as

838
01:19:56,43 --> 01:20:02,91
a senior official having convinced my bosses
Yes the second engine could have done

839
01:20:02,92 --> 01:20:08,34
that the directed at the executive director
of UNICEF could have done that but it

840
01:20:08,35 --> 01:20:15,25
didn't happen. The UN UN is in many
ways unfortunately also very shy

841
01:20:15,37 --> 01:20:22,25
why use the UN shy Well for one very
practical reason the UN relies on

842
01:20:22,26 --> 01:20:29,24
countries like yours to
get. Money you know so

843
01:20:29,25 --> 01:20:29,46
there's

844
01:20:29,47 --> 01:20:36,40
a bias here. And it is me if
you have enough let me just.

845
01:20:38,13 --> 01:20:43,52
Talk to you about the miserable budget
of the United Nations I mean the U.N.

846
01:20:43,53 --> 01:20:49,30
Is with two point six billion that's the
this year's budget two point six billion.

847
01:20:50,39 --> 01:20:56,26
Is what the secretary it has in
New York to finance New York plus

848
01:20:56,53 --> 01:21:01,82
a few were sent to us in different parts
of the world two point six billion if you

849
01:21:01,83 --> 01:21:08,59
add everything every agency of the United
Nations and their resource then you get

850
01:21:08,60 --> 01:21:14,14
for last year just about including
peacekeeping operations twenty four billion

851
01:21:14,15 --> 01:21:19,01
dollars not twenty four billion
dollars to you and me sounds like

852
01:21:19,02 --> 01:21:22,70
a lot. But if I tell you No As

853
01:21:22,71 --> 01:21:28,39
a comparison in comparison these figures
are not I mean they are so in my hard disk

854
01:21:28,40 --> 01:21:34,54
so clearly that I can rely on them we in
two thousand and five two thousand and six

855
01:21:34,55 --> 01:21:41,50
two thousand and seven. The monthly
The monthly cost of keeping the

856
01:21:41,51 --> 01:21:42,08
U.S.

857
01:21:42,09 --> 01:21:49,03
Military in Iraq. Twelve billion dollars
That means one hundred forty four

858
01:21:49,04 --> 01:21:54,88
billion dollars a year against a budget
of twenty four that is the whole U.N.

859
01:21:54,89 --> 01:21:56,34
System had

860
01:21:56,35 --> 01:22:02,98
a resource that was equal to two months
two months of maintaining the troops in

861
01:22:02,99 --> 01:22:09,72
Iraq during those those years that shows
you and if you break it down also maybe

862
01:22:09,73 --> 01:22:12,11
one more figure to the U.N.

863
01:22:12,12 --> 01:22:17,87
Would publish reports on Iraq
and on the inflow off in quote

864
01:22:18,13 --> 01:22:24,25
humanitarian goods and the value of
these goods first of all it wasn't

865
01:22:24,26 --> 01:22:31,11
humanitarian because what the person in the
public does know ways that every single

866
01:22:31,27 --> 01:22:37,26
cent of what went into Iraq as humanitarian
goods was paid for by the Iraqis

867
01:22:37,27 --> 01:22:43,00
themselves it came out of oil money my
salary was paid by the Iraqi government

868
01:22:43,23 --> 01:22:44,24
every U.N.

869
01:22:44,24 --> 01:22:50,37
. Action was paid for by
the by the by the Iraqis

870
01:22:50,78 --> 01:22:52,51
saw the U.N.

871
01:22:52,52 --> 01:22:59,22
Says we had sixty four billion for the Oil
for Food program six years forty three

872
01:22:59,23 --> 01:23:06,09
billion for in quote humanitarian
efforts out of the forty three twenty

873
01:23:06,10 --> 01:23:12,07
eight billion twenty eight billion actually
arrived in Iraq don't ask me now why

874
01:23:12,08 --> 01:23:16,85
the difference I can explain but now maybe
twenty eight billion that's where the

875
01:23:16,86 --> 01:23:18,35
U.N. Stopped the U.N.

876
01:23:18,36 --> 01:23:22,74
Should have gone one big step further
and tell you and then you and I can

877
01:23:22,75 --> 01:23:29,23
understand it that this amounted
to fifty one cent per person per

878
01:23:29,24 --> 01:23:36,12
day for the average Iraqis we assume
twenty three million Iraqis at that time

879
01:23:36,51 --> 01:23:37,84
fifty one cents

880
01:23:38,17 --> 01:23:43,80
a cup of coffee I tell students you can get
for fifty one cents they had fifty one

881
01:23:43,81 --> 01:23:50,57
cents. Sixty to seventy percent of the
people relied on the Samantha in Iraq these

882
01:23:50,58 --> 01:23:56,75
are the orders of magnitude that make you
angry because it's all so little and so

883
01:23:56,76 --> 01:24:02,07
in adequate and there are proportional
states the Tobin tax you have heard of the

884
01:24:02,08 --> 01:24:08,68
top tax assessing financial transactions
if Canada to the US or Germany to Belgium

885
01:24:08,69 --> 01:24:10,55
is a tiny fraction of

886
01:24:10,56 --> 01:24:16,41
a percent to be added and the resources
out of that would go for international

887
01:24:16,47 --> 01:24:23,18
activities including the United Nations
read this to happen the UN would be in much

888
01:24:23,19 --> 01:24:27,85
better shape we could do much more and we
could do it maybe better we could recruit

889
01:24:27,86 --> 01:24:33,34
also at different levels it's not meant
to be the UN isn't supposed to be

890
01:24:33,41 --> 01:24:39,78
a strong institution we
see the end result. OK.

891
01:24:40,82 --> 01:24:47,32
You can hear me I think you know my
heart for being here. It would be

892
01:24:47,33 --> 01:24:52,71
possible to spend days and days and days
learning from you and I am very very

893
01:24:52,72 --> 01:24:58,39
grateful to you for taking your time to
spend with us so thank you I would like

894
01:24:58,40 --> 01:24:59,79
a standing ovation please.